From Courtroom to Calm: How Mindfulness Transformed a Lawyer’s Life

Dr. Bonnie Wims (01:09)
Hi everybody, welcome to Therapy Deconstructed. Today I am speaking with somebody I'm so excited to talk to. For some reason, life has just gotten between us for several months now. And so you know how it is, sometimes you're worried about losing that momentum. But from the time that I've spoken to this person to now, I've been just waiting for this opportunity to introduce her to all of you because of her story, because of what she does, and it's just really exciting. So today I have Courtney Schulnick and Courtney Schulnick is a mindfulness teacher and coach. She's also an attorney, which is going to make you go, hmm, how did that happen? So she's got a great story. I think it's really relatable to people as far as how you manage when, you know, life is hard and there's a lot going on between stress, anxiety, and all those things.
She has a lot of really interesting things to talk about. And then we're going to do something I've never done on this podcast before. We're going to end with a bit of an experiential mindfulness time with Courtney leading us. So save that for the end. Don't be driving. You want to spend some time with us through the whole podcast to get that last few minutes with her, because I'm really excited for you to kind of experience some of what she's talking about. So welcome, Courtney. I'm so glad you're here.

Courtney Schulnick (02:31)
Thank you. It's my delight to be here with you. And speaking of waiting, I would have waited for even more months. I really enjoyed connecting with you. So I'm so happy to be here with you finally.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (02:42)
Yeah, we met on a podcast dating service, so to speak, and just immediately had a call and hit it off. so, you know, as a counseling psychologist, I work some mindfulness into my time with clients, but I am in no way an expert and certainly not trained in any sort of formal way. And that's why I was really excited to have you on because you have such an interesting story, but you're also trained mindfulness teacher and coach. I just feel like there's a lot of really good information that I want to pick your brain about. But first of all, could you tell us a little bit about your story because of the whole, you know, might not seem like a natural kind of pairing as far as being a mindfulness teacher, coach, and also an attorney.

Courtney Schulnick (03:27)
Yeah, and that tends to be a common response when people hear that I'm a mindfulness teacher and an attorney, but it actually has been a beautiful journey and it fit really well together for me in my experience in trying to better manage stress and anxiety, which in large part stemmed from my work as an attorney. But long before that, as a young child, I would get anxious about the littlest things and it came from a good place, like whether it was wanting to do a good job on a test or if I was trying out for a sport, wanting to make a team. So there was sort of that perfectionism that was underneath the surface brewing. And as I moved on in my education and decided to go to law school, that judgmental piece that many of us, we tend to judge ourselves as good or bad or not enough at this or we should be like this. It really heightened in law school. And fast forward to getting married, having a family, trying to find a sense of balance. I just felt like when I was at work, I was giving myself a hard time for not having been a good enough mom or present enough for my husband. And yet when I was home and I was enjoying being with my family, then something would pop up. I'd go into panic mode and think, what did I forget at work? Or I should be working. I shouldn't be spending all this time with my family or out tending errands. So it was a constant...push and pull and I noticed that when I was at work, it was getting in the way of my ability to perform. I would get into work some mornings and even just turning on the computer and going to check my email, I would assume that there were like a stack of really bad emails or that I was going to get a call from a client that you messed this up. It was just...like very overwhelming in terms of both the stressors I was feeling in the professional sector, but also in my personal life.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (05:53)

My gosh. Like I feel like you're inside my head. And all the conversations I've ever had with like girlfriends and fellow moms and that, that, you know, you're not doing it right anywhere. so a constant state of just not getting it right. I remember saying to my husband, when our kids were young, you know, we just, need a wife and a mother. Can we hire one of them? You know, like it just, there was never, I just never was right. Never did anything. I was always running late to that or didn't kind of did that in a half halfway or trying to be both places at both times. And you just, it's absolutely impossible and so much stress and it's, you do something I think, which a lot of women do. And that is then blame yourself somehow you're failing, right? There's the whole idea that you've given yourself a hard time for it.

Courtney Schulnick (06:24)
Yeah.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (06:45)
You're not recognizing that the situation is basically untenable. It's somehow you aren't doing it right. Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (06:45)
Yeah.

Right. Like,

why can't I keep up with the speed of this? Or why didn't I do that as well? And you're trying to juggle it all. And sometimes the demands, they're pretty steep, but it comes back to you beating down on yourself. Like you're not good enough and it could, the list could go on and on.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (07:11)
which is not helpful. It doesn't motivate you. It doesn't make you feel calm. It doesn't give you a nice centered place to work from. just creates more, more, right? More stress, more anxiety, all of that.

Courtney Schulnick (07:12)
No. No.

Yeah.

And when we're already in a bad place, whether we're feeling the physical symptoms of stress or the emotional or the mental, we're already hurting, we add another layer of suffering by what it is we tell ourselves or where our thoughts go. So yeah, at the end of the day, it's not skillful. It's not helpful.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (07:38)
Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (07:46)
for us and when we're not in a good place, whether it's physically or emotionally, then we really can't care for our families. can't care for our pets. We can't take the best care of ourselves.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (08:01)
Yeah. So why

mindfulness? How did we go from being an attorney, which I don't want to make a huge kind of sweeping judgment of. There's all sorts of attorneys, all sorts of people being attorneys, but it doesn't, I'm not, I don't think I've met a lot of attorneys that sort of talk about mindfulness. So how did you, yeah, why mindfulness?

Courtney Schulnick (08:11)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, just speaking of caring for ourselves, I didn't like the way I was feeling and I really wanted to be more present for my life. I had on every which level such a wonderful life from my family to my friends to my career, but I wasn't able to be present for it. And so I wanted to find a way to better manage stress and anxiety.

It wasn't that I was against medication. I was recommended, I was working together with a therapist and she, for many years to find ways to cope with what I was experiencing and she had suggested different medications, but at the time I was very limited in what I could take from a medical standpoint because I had a toddler and a newborn who I was nursing.

I was thinking about myself, but I was also thinking about his well-being. So she suggested what is known as the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction Program, or it's also known as MBSR program. It's an eight-week program where you meet each week for eight consecutive weeks for two and a half hours. So it's one day each week for eight weeks.

The thought of that on top of everything I was already juggling, a full-time job as an attorney and two children, no less a newborn child, it seemed really overwhelming, but I had tried other practices. had tried yoga. I had read self-help books. I had even purchased a book about mindfulness, but it was much...

harder to have a sense of accountability when you're pulled in so many directions to say, okay, I'm going to carve out time now to get some reading in. Maybe on the train or if I was on the bus, I would get a few pages here and there. But I really wanted to show up for myself. I wanted to find a way that felt comfortable given the situation I was in in my life that was safe for me, safe for my children, and to really

find more joy that was present, but I just wasn't able to be with it.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (10:42)
I love the, not that you were going through that, but I love the fact that I realized one day many years ago that I'd read a bunch of books on meditation. I read about meditation. I didn't meditate. I read about it. I read a lot about it and I loved reading about it. And I read these great books where people talk about the benefits of it and these great, you know, people that have meditated to end.

Courtney Schulnick (10:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (11:08)
enlightenment and all sorts of experiences of that. just thought it sounded wonderful, but I didn't meditate. And so there was a real moment for me several years ago where I thought, put down the books, Bonnie, and meditate. If that's what you want to do, stop reading about other people getting the benefits from it. So it's kind of like, that's what you were doing. were, you were reading about it, mindfulness. were reading about the benefits. You had the self-help books. You were talking about it, but you weren't

Courtney Schulnick (11:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (11:35)
doing it. So this course gave you that experience of the experiential piece. Is that right? Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (11:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, for

sure. Yeah. I had had other sort of like the physical end of things, like go for a run, take a yoga class, but it was more the mental component, like really understanding how the mind works and learning different practices and tools to work with the mind. And that was really what was transformational for me to understand.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (12:07)
Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (12:09)
sort of the ways in which I was getting in my own way, the way I was creating more suffering for myself and how can I relate differently to the stressors in my life and also be less judgmental of myself. And those were some of the tools, they were some of the qualities and the really just...

Dr. Bonnie Wims (12:16)
Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (12:38)
I'd say that the practices helped me to deepen my awareness, understand what was coming up for me. That when you're in autopilot, when you're constantly doing and you're trying to juggle it all, given the demands and the speed of how fast life moves, you can't always notice that. So the actual practice, the actual, like not just reading, but

actually the experiential and to slow down, to be an observer, to feel and to be with what was present, that is what became the gateway to taking better care of myself. And just to step back, I think you had mentioned like attorney and mindfulness. As attorneys, I think I know that we're

expected to carry ourselves a certain way and we can't let our guard down. We can't show that we're hurting or we're scared or we're nervous because then our adversary may get the best of us or we'll come across as a pushover. So we're sort of conditioned not only as attorneys but high achieving professionals to stuff those more

vulnerable feelings under the carpet. And so with mindfulness, it's turning towards what can feel really challenging and exploring it. And that is what...

opens us up to so much possibility in our lives. So I just wanted to go back to, I think that's a common, when people hear attorney mindfulness, that's what comes up often.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (14:20)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I like that you also kind of wrapped in like high achieving individuals, anyone who has these expectations for themselves and then feel like the world needs to see them a certain way in order to do that job, you know, which is the opposite of perhaps feeling like I can be vulnerable and honest and sit in my anxiety right now or show that I'm scared or any of the things that

Courtney Schulnick (14:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (14:48)
are happening because you're a human being. You can't possibly kind of, so that's stuffing down the avoidance to try to push it away, which we also all know doesn't work. So mindfulness, you ended up doing the course because now you are a teacher. Now you teach it. Just briefly tell me how did that sort of happen for you? Because it must have worked.

Courtney Schulnick (14:50)
Right.

Yeah. Correct.

Yeah.

I noticed what we call the fruits of the practice. I started to actually taste the fruits of the practice in my professional life, in my personal life. And I started talking to some of my colleagues about how I was really noticing a change in how I was feeling, how I was thinking. And I got so much curiosity from some of my colleagues at the law firm that they said, would you be willing to give

a lunch and learn like an hour workshop so that we can learn more about what it's mindfulness about. So I put together, after I had completed the MBSR, the eight week program, I put together a short PowerPoint presentation. I led the group in a very short guided practice and the responses that I received, was so encouraging.

It was so fulfilling, A, because I really understood the pain points. I understood what they were grappling with, because I was in it with them. And to be able to even just offer them a little bit of ease, if nothing else, if it was just in that one hour workshop, if they could feel their innate goodness, if they could take a little bit of a load off their shoulders, that to me,

felt so rewarding. And I noticed that I didn't always love being in a courtroom and standing in front of a judge. I loved standing in front of a group of people and teaching them mindfulness. How can they reduce stress? How can they reduce anxiety, depression, and really enjoy their lives? it showed me that this is something that I didn't...

just want to stop and not stop, but limit to my personal practice. I wanted to share this with the world. So that really encouraged me to continue my own personal practice, but also I completed the extensive training at the Center for Mindfulness at Jefferson in Philadelphia. And I then started an internship and

then in the last several years I joined the team of teachers there. So I now teach the MBSR program and other graduate level classes.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (17:33)
And you also made a really large change, didn't you? Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (17:36)
I did. I

did. speaking of, it's sort of twofold. I really have such a passion to help others. And I realized that while I did a really good job as an attorney, as a litigator, helping others and defending them in really challenging cases, I enjoy more teaching people mindfulness and

supporting them in what can feel really challenging, just being in the world as a whole, but whether it's issues they're dealing with health-wise or in their profession or in relationships, I felt like I could contribute in more ways as a mindfulness teacher. about right before the Thanksgiving holiday, I made the decision. It was one that I had been really

sitting with and being with all the thoughts and feelings that come along with such a big choice, but I decided to step away from my role as a litigator so that I can pursue this work on a full-time basis.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (18:47)
Unbelievable. mean, I love that so much. I don't know if you and I talked about it, the fact that some of the listeners will remember from earlier episode of my podcast, but that I changed careers and became a psychologist at the age of 50. So walked away from a different career, a very different career very much. And so I could just totally relate to this stepping into something that just feels so good, right? Feels right.

Courtney Schulnick (19:03)
Amazing.

It, yeah,

it, it a hundred percent feels so good. And yes, but, we, talked about this briefly before, before the show started, but there's also this, this like incredibly, it can feel a bit scary because you go from something that you, for me, I was doing something that I had been doing for

Dr. Bonnie Wims (19:31)
⁓ man.

Courtney Schulnick (19:36)
two decades and then you're sort of, know in your heart, you know in your heart that you're invested in it it brings you joy. But from the financial security and standpoint to just the not knowing like what it's gonna become and what exactly your next step is, it's been the greatest, I say the greatest laboratory to practice mindfulness, to bring it to like even deepen my personal practice into what.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (20:04)
⁓ yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (20:04)
life.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (20:05)
Yes, absolutely. I was just talking to someone the other day. said, you know, quit, went to school and years and years and years later when I finally finished with my doctorate, the day that I passed that VIVA and walked out of the defense of my thesis and knew that I had passed and I was now a psychologist, greatest day of my life. I'll never forget it.

Courtney Schulnick (20:19)
I that's the play.

I'm trying to say a lot, but I will forget

it. The test will come to an important night. I have to make a private practice now. Yeah. It's a daunting thing. I want to think that I'm finished with the next big pop-up. And so what I love is that you just described it as actually training. we're talking about a training tool to actually help you with that.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (20:28)
But then woke up the next morning and realized I had to make a private practice now. You know? Yeah. So one thing just finished and the next thing popped up. so what I love is that you're just describing you actually trained and where you taught yourself and were trained with tools to actually help you with that next phase

then to the actual stepping into something.

Courtney Schulnick (20:54)
stepping into something

Dr. Bonnie Wims (20:56)
You could then use the mindfulness to help you through that. Because it's terrifying. It's one thing to have a dream. It's one

Courtney Schulnick (20:56)
even if it's the life of a state.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (21:03)
thing to really have a passion for something that really, or anybody listening out there wanting to make a change. It's one thing to finally step into that. But it's really something to just decide real life gets in the way. Financial concerns, all sorts of things show up that are real. These aren't just, well, I feel a little nervous. It's like, no.

Courtney Schulnick (21:09)
Yeah.

Yeah,

Dr. Bonnie Wims (21:23)
I actually have to make this work. so

Courtney Schulnick (21:24)
another.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (21:26)
I love that you actually were giving yourself the training and the tools to manage that. Yeah, go ahead.

Courtney Schulnick (21:31)
Yeah,

it's been a beautiful sort of circular journey in that it wasn't just my work, but in large part, my work as an attorney heightened my anxiety level. It became my path to mindfulness. Mindfulness in turn offered me these tools and resources that I could continue with a very successful career as a litigator for another decade. And then

just getting a deeper level of clarity and being able to focus in on what it is I really want, that just led me on to the next part of my journey that now this place I am in my life, this couldn't be any clearer. This is what my heart is calling for in this moment. yeah, it's been really neat to see mindfulness at work, so to speak, but in kind of like an effortless way. It just sort of reveals itself to you.

and you listen to it when you pay attention.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (22:32)
Yeah, I, gosh, if we could, we could do like a 24 hour podcast where we could just talk about all of your aspects. So million questions running through my head, but I want, I'm cognizant. I want to have time to do the experiential. Cause I think for people who don't kind of understand how is the connection of being mindful lead to all these wonderful things you're talking about, you know, it doesn't, maybe it doesn't make like logical sense in that sort of you do this and then that happens. And that's, I know that's not how it works anyway.

Courtney Schulnick (22:38)
I'm game.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (23:02)
I think the experience will just be fun because it give, give people a chance that they do this along with us while you're listening, to just be taught from you, just, just, yeah, what are, what is this about really? What is this that, and you know, five minutes is five minutes, but I think it's, if there people out there reading about being mindful or reading about, meditating like I did for like years and years and aren't actually doing it.

Courtney Schulnick (23:26)
Thank

Dr. Bonnie Wims (23:28)
this will give them the chance to do that. why don't we move into that now, if that's okay with you. Okay, all right.

Courtney Schulnick (23:29)
Yeah.

Sure. That's perfect. just

as you said in the beginning, in case anybody jumped on later in the episode and didn't catch that, oftentimes people listen to podcasts in their car. If you are driving, I don't recommend closing your eyes and practicing a mindfulness meditation. But if you can wait until you're not driving, maybe pull over and then practice.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (23:56)
Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (23:57)
So yeah, so just going to invite listeners, viewers to come into a posture that feels supportive. And as Jon Kabat-Zinn, the pioneer of the mindfulness-based stress reduction program often says, with mindfulness practice, we're really waking up to our lives. So just finding a posture that allows you to be awake, alert, and as much at ease as possible.

And if you care to, you can just gently invite your eyes to close or maybe having more of a soft downward gaze.

and inviting attention to come more and more fully into the sense of the body.

So whether you're sitting upright on a chair, maybe on the floor or lying down, really knowing that you're here in this moment because you feel it within the body.

Perhaps noticing the points of contact that the body's making with the physical support and really allowing yourself to be supported.

so that for just these few minutes of our practice together, you don't have to work so hard.

and beginning to notice the body breathing.

Throughout this whole episode you've been breathing So not having to think about it not having to control or change it in any way

but just simply letting the breath breathe itself.

Noticing each in-breath.

in each out-breath.

You might be noticing the sensation of the breath in the region of the nostrils, just sensing the subtle movement of air coming and going.

Maybe the breath is more easily noticed in the region of the belly or perhaps the chest.

Noticing the rising with each in breath.

and that sense of letting go with each out-breath.

as much as possible, letting go of any sense of efforting, so not having to think about the breath, not having to figure anything out, but rather opening to the direct experience.

what it's like to be breathing moment by moment.

breath by breath.

You may be noticing thoughts, maybe thoughts of what's to come or what has to get done or maybe thoughts of the past.

and knowing that that's completely normal. So not having to give yourself a hard time. Just simply noticing thoughts, letting thoughts come and go, letting sounds, mood states, all be as they are.

But for now, letting the center of attention rest on the sensation of the breath coming and going.

Maybe noticing how with each in breath, the breath naturally rises to a peak.

And then with each out-breath, the breath just lets go.

So for these final moments of our practice, inviting any areas where you may be noticing tightness or holding that's not needed, maybe allowing each exhalation to carry an invitation to let go.

to relax.

and to rest in the awareness of simply being here.

And then with your next exhalation, just gently beginning to expand your attention beyond the sense of the breath.

Sensing the whole body here.

and sensing the space around the body.

Maybe noticing sounds traveling through the space around the body.

And if you've been practicing with your eyes closed, as you feel ready, gently inviting your eyes to float open, beginning to take in your visual field, maybe noticing colors and lights, shapes, and opening to receive the sounds of the bell.

So I'll just invite listeners, viewers to notice how you are, notice how you're experiencing this moment. And Bonnie, if you care to share what it is you're noticing in this moment.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (30:46)
Yeah, I first of all didn't want that to end. That was absolutely lovely. Everything just sort of slowed down. Your voice, your instruction as I sat, you know, at first just being aware of myself sitting and being aware, but then as I paid attention to the breath.

Courtney Schulnick (30:53)
You

Dr. Bonnie Wims (31:11)
Everything just really, just, that's, the word is slow. Everything just slowed down. it was interesting at one point you said if there's any part of your body, and I know you typically would be doing longer than five minutes, that is tight, you know, and doesn't, I think, what did you say? Did you, does it need to be?

Courtney Schulnick (31:29)
that if there's any holding within the body that's not needed, that you can, with the next exhalation, you can just invite the muscles or invite the regions of tightness to soften or let go.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (31:43)
Yeah, the phrase not needed. It was just so gentle and kind. wasn't like relax. It was, it's not needed. And I was, I'm doing physical therapy for an injury and I did that this morning. So my shoulder and my shoulder blades are a bit sore. And as you said that I realized I was kind of holding them and, that not needed. I don't need to do that.

Courtney Schulnick (32:05)
Yeah.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (32:08)
I didn't need to hold them, but it's such a gentle, kind way of doing it. It's not judgmental. It was just, I don't need to do it. And that felt really nice. It made me realize that I was holding it sort of tightly. Just felt lovely. Lovely is the word I'm coming up with. I feel incredibly calm and just very present and just really grateful that I got to do that with you. I did it for the listeners. I didn't really think about.

Courtney Schulnick (32:27)
I'm glad.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (32:36)
the beautiful value I was going to get out of it. So thank you.

Courtney Schulnick (32:40)
I love what you're giving a voice and oftentimes in all the doing that we do, moment to moment, day to day, we're not aware of how much holding there is within the body. So when we take moments even just to bring attention into the body, because many of us are so in our heads that we're not even aware that we're within a body, so sometimes just even resting attention on the body.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (32:51)
Yeah.

Courtney Schulnick (33:05)
can incline us in the direction of ease, or we can at least notice where there are areas of tightness that aren't needed in the moment, and we can invite. The key is we're inviting. So with mindfulness, oftentimes people think after they do a five-minute practice, a 20-minute practice, that they're going to feel more relaxed or more at ease. And while mindfulness can have that outcome, it's

It's not about forcing ourselves to feel or be a particular way, but making it more invitational. It's the awareness piece. We want to strengthen our awareness in the moment so that we know how to care for ourselves. And then just getting back to what you said about the slowing down, even taking moments, small moments throughout the day to just feel the breath. doesn't have to be, think we practice for about five minutes, but taking five seconds to feel.

feel a few cycles of breath, to feel the connection that your body's making with the earth or the chair or the floor, that can have a slowing down effect. So that even if our world's feeling chaotic, can internally, we can slow things down a bit, we can slow down the nervous system. And that in turn is what allows us like that, just being is what

really impacts our doing in the next moment. So small moments many times we often say can be so incredibly supportive. Yeah.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (34:35)
Yeah.

there's just so much in that. You've just really been such a gift today, Courtney. Thank you so much.

Courtney Schulnick (34:42)
⁓ it's

been a gift to be back together with you and to have an opportunity to be on the show. So the pleasure has been all mine.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (34:51)
Now tell everyone how they can find you and what you're, know, cause now you're, full time. You're doing this all the time. What do you do? How do they find out about you?

Courtney Schulnick (34:59)
I'm full time. Yeah.

Sure. So I am really active on LinkedIn. anybody wants, if anyone's on LinkedIn and wants to find out sort of the latest and greatest, I'm really active on LinkedIn. You can just search my name, Courtney Schulnick. And then I also have a website, Courtney Schulnick mindfulness. And you can find more information about mindfulness. You can learn more about some of the different offerings.

that you can engage in and then there's a lot of free resources. So if you liked the five minute practice that we did, there are similar three minute practices, other five minute practices and then some longer practices, both audio and video.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (35:48)
And can people hire you?

Courtney Schulnick (35:50)
They can, yeah. So I work with lot of attorneys, it's sort of that having worked in the legal space, I became known as like the mindful lawyer, but I can really understand other industries where there's high stakes, high stress. So if you're a professional and you're looking to bring a workshop into your workplace or you want to work one-on-one,

Or if you are an attorney and you're looking to work one-on-one or bring a program into your organization or a CLE class, I'm happy to talk more about what I can offer.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (36:30)
Right, amazing. So LinkedIn, your website, and I'll put these in the show notes, obviously, so everyone knows, make sure they spell your name right and all of that stuff. I encourage people because whether you've listened to this or watched little clips or watched it on YouTube, Courtney's just got a way about her that is, it's just, like I said, it's been...

Courtney Schulnick (36:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, thanks.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (36:53)
long in the making and I'm so glad we didn't let it fall away because we may need to have you on again. I've got lots of, my brain is now kicking back up and wants to ask all kinds of questions. maybe we'll do that. Maybe we'll have a part two where we talk more about sort of why does this work and how, because I think there's just a lot of wonderful science behind this and.

Courtney Schulnick (37:02)
You and me both.

Sure.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (37:18)
just knowing from my perspective, the neuroscience of how the brain works and the added benefit of everything you were just talking about as far as becoming present and getting the mind to calm down just leads so nicely to all of that. So yeah, there may be a Courtney Schoenlich part two. Watch for that, watch that space. great, okay.

Courtney Schulnick (37:35)
I welcome it with open arms and happy so happy to

be back.

Dr. Bonnie Wims (37:39)
So thank you all for listening. hope you did the experiential along with us with your car parked securely in the driveway and that you felt some of this. Let me know if you'd like to hear more about it or if you just want to tell me how it felt for you. It was really a great experience for me. So I hope you had it with me. And as always, you guys know, we can reach out to me at my website, BonnieWims.

I'm on all the socials also, and I offer a free 30 minute consultation. If you just want to chat, see if therapies or mental health coaching is something that you're looking for that would make us a good match. That's always available at free. So I just want people to know that there are avenues. are things out there that you can go to to help if you're feeling stressed, if you're feeling that things aren't quite right. And if Courtney sounds like the one for you, I...

I absolutely encourage you to look for her also. Your website's beautiful, so head over to there if you guys are interested. But thanks again for listening. I'm really happy to have had you, and I'll see you guys all the next time around. See you later.

Courtney Schulnick (38:48)
Thanks so much.